Ropetown

With the situation arising now of having more healers than needed I think we should look at changing the policy of off spec loot costing dkp. The comment was made last night "our healers should have dps off-specs" well, I did have one previously and would have one now if it weren't for the fact that any loot I pick up costs me for off-spec. Granted a large number of my resto gear easily swaps to moonkin, but there are still some hit pieces needed. Healers having a dps spec is beneficial to everyone, that player and the guild. While I know we'd like to set the world record for abyss crystals in a guild bank, I think we should look at allowing off specs to pick-up loot without punishment.

Regardless, I've picked up 3/4 piece tier 9 for moonkin and I'm going to hit up randoms for the rest of my badges needed. There are a few pieces I could use from ToC and ToGC yet. So, by the end of the weekend I should have a more than capable moonkin spec.

It could be tricky when there are some items you could claim to be offspec but use as either spec, however I don't think that would be too much of an issue. A start to this could be to at least allow healers to take dps items with HIT or other things clearly for dps for no dkp cost

Discussing this is definitely a good idea. Healers taking items with hit rating, and dpsers taking off spec tank loot would be fine. It would also be easy for Yakub or Baird to take off spec healing and tank loot since there is no overlap with their main specs. As for dps casters taking healing loot... there's really just me and Gerrald, and I don't heal anyway. That said, I still can build an acceptable healing set out of t9 pieces and various items for main spec. As many positives and solutions for the potential negatives we've come up with, I'm sure there are other issues we haven't thought of, and I'd like to see some of those brought up.

Good point Verdy. For example, I have a hit off hand I use for pve now because the damn regen heroic one never drops. However, I don't see that situation arising much.

Yea I forgot about tank loot, that's a big one.

In my old guild offspec loot posed an issue and spurred many arguments.

First, people argued about what was and was not considered offspec loot (those items that are mentioned outside of the hit that were usable for two specs). In response to that, the guild made a list of every piece of loot available and listed it on the website with what class could take it as offspec ( For Example: XX Healing Weapon : Balance Druids, Feral Druids, ... ). [Now healing weapons are used by dps and healers ].

Then classes that did not have fairly definable offspecs complained and felt cheated because they could not take (free) things that they considered offspec (Rogues, Hunters for other specs, warlocks, mages ) -- the line became incredibly blurred. The guild appeased the rogues by allowing them to take daggers as offspec when they used swords but then that caused an issue when people would notice them using them in main raids. In this way people were abusing the system to get free main-spec items.

Additionally, if two players wanted the same item rolling caused a problem because apparently it was not as fair as dkp. There was so much bitching and complaining about technicalities in the whole thing that they made a whole "secondary dkp" for offspec loot. (Then debates when someone changed their main spec about dkp refunds ect - they would switch secondary dkp with main dkp).

Finally, as each objection was treated on a case by case basis - people likened it to a loot council or corrupted system and exploded about every inconsistency in treatment. (So & so got this for free as offspec and I didn't).

These are just some things that that guild ran into, not saying that we would have them -- but when considering all possible outcomes ( I think we are more mature than that and less greedy ), you just never know.

^ There ya go Elenya. (:

Theres always going to be issues with dkp guilds and off-spec type things. Charging people dkp for off-spec items is just going to hurt both their specs imo. Gape would be a good example, he pretty much tanks all 10 mans, he can tank 25 if someone is missing, but if he had to pay for all the tank items he needs to tank, his dps gear would be less optimal. we had yakub going moonkin to tank to healer for a while too. Anyone that uses 2nd spec often is going to have that issue though.

as a raider, i dont mind seeing people like that getting free off-spec items. Just revoke the priviledge if someone tries to take advantage of it?

Not sure what type of DKP system you guys use currently, but how my alliance guild did it was 10% of actual cost. So if it cost 200DKP normal, offspec would be only 20DKP.

It had to be main before offspec, and had to be a true off-spec item (at officer discretion). It worked pretty good, I was a holy/shadow priest, and I ended up being having to DPS a lot since we tended to bring more healers for certain fights.

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we don't need to change the dkp rules for off-spec loot. if you don't want to spend your dkp on off-spec gear, then don't. people have successfully maintained off-spec sets in the past without a problem. it just means you might not be first in line for an item you want. if that's unacceptable to you, that's your choice.

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I disagree. It is beneficial to everyone like Goob pointed out to have people with offspecs. If items are just getting sharded why not make sure they get into the hands of those who will use them? In addition, those who will use those items shouldn't be punished for the fact that they are versatile enough to maintain different specs. It wouldn't be an issue if the system wouldn't be abused.

Its all well and good to sit there as a casual and say that when you aren't one of the 8 or 9 healers fighting for 4-6 raid spots for 10 mans and being told that healers should have an offspec so that people aren't constantly sitting on the bench. Personally I like sas's idea where offspec gear is discounted by alot. I personally really enjoy playing my offspecs and am fortunate enough to have a class that can fill multiple roles in a raid/group, but I am not going to sacrifice getting the best gear possible for my main spec over picking up gear for an off spec.

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honestly I think we need to relook at our entire dkp system. our dkp system isn't fabulous as-is, but offspec gear only makes it worse on everyone.

here is a survey of past and present ideas.

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one major problem we have from evolving our system to something actually good is that it's done almost entirely manually.

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we used zero sum standard dkp throughout entire level 60 raid instances until we finally "reset" it for level 70 raids. and then we'd reset it for each new tier (we didnt at level 60).

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this evolved later when set loot was common and nobody took it because it ruined your dkp and wasnt really that great. we moved set loot to suicide kings on a completely isolated dkp system, which I think greatly improved our loot situation.

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at level 80, set loot magically became very good, and offset gear was kinda meh. however, for some reason, we kept offset gear that used those main 5 slots extremely expensive, like 40-60 points. also, trinkets became one of the BEST slots period, yet their cost remained at around 10 or 15 points. this made no sense. I'm guessing EVERY SINGLE PLAYER wanted trinket from totc and probably icc too, and would pay a LOT for it, but few people want offset loot over set loot.

I think we changed this for icecrown citadel (30 dkp for trinket), but I know that some pieces are still expensive (like 40 dkp for legs). I guarantee every dpser will value a rediculous trinket much more than some offset legs, which are probably (a) trivially better than set legs and (b) you can get legs for free via set piece (badges alone, and upgradable through a free token).

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I do not think people should rape their dkp taking loot that nobody wants, and this is the problem charging so much for offset head/chest/shoulders/gloves/hands.

I do not think people should get the single best upgrade possible for the least dkp (e.g., trinket).

I don't like dkp whoring, but I have to do it due to our current system. If I buy even one piece, I'm probably SOL for getting any other useful loot for the rest of the tier until we reset.

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Blast from the past: back at the start of ropetown level 60 raiding, we had each class go through some items they use to suggest a dkp value for each item. I thought that was a good idea. E.g., if warlock bracers were amazing for warlocks but warrior bracers sucked ass for warriors, then warlocks could assign a higher dkp value for their bracers and warriors could assign a lower value.

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An alternate system I found interesting is shibou's loot system (from exodus). It's complex, but discourages dkp whoring. Here's how it works.

Basically it's zero-sum like we use for our main dkp. However, the value of a PURCHASED ITEM changes over time. If you buy an item for, say, 30 dkp, then you spend the 30 and the 30 gets spread out among everyone in the raid (zero-sum). Over time (2 months for them), that SPENT value of 30 dkp reduces to 0 dkp. So, if you bought an item 2 months prior, you actually paid 0 dkp for it. And everyone else gets 0 dkp for it.

This basically encourages spending of dkp early and often, since your spent dkp is "forgiven" over time, and you can conceivably be just as high on dkp as anyone else if you stop spending.

Note that it's the price that an individual bought that item for, not the item itself. So if a new person buys that same item at a later point, they'd still get charged the 30, and it again reduces to 0 over 2 months.

This seemed similar to suicide kings but puts an actual dkp value on things, so you can buy multiple items with relative values rather than just drop to last place.

Also, dkp whoring isnt entirely removed, since the top initial seed would still whore for the trinket until it drops. But, lower ranks can, in the mean-time, buy useful upgrades and still actually have a chance for the trinket later.

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Another alternate system is the reserving of items. In general, if someone starts with the highest seed dkp (e.g., Sancus, Elenya, Bairdy), they will have prime choice of loot in the entire instance. We already know most of the items for an entire instance.

However, if the loot comes from, say, Anub in totc, which isnt even unlocked for 4 weeks, they'll be holding onto their dkp so ensure they get the first trinket. In the meantime, they can't buy any items. They won't. They don't. And it might not even drop for weeks afterwards (hi ne reign of the dead).

Reserving or pre-purchasing items would allow them to buy that item immediately (given that they have top dkp at that point in time) so that they get it automatically when it drops. Then, they can spend their dkp on other things in the meantime (having deducted the pre-purchase prices), so that gear doesn't go to waste, and they can buy upgrades in the meantime instead of being worthless (like me) since their 1 item has never dropped.

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I'm not really suggesting anything, other than that I think we need to change the system to support the changes of the game and our guild.

after that shitty ass 10 man icc group composition with 10 offspecs, I think it'd be nice to let healers (for example) get offspec gear. I don't think this would be difficult to implement. just make another dkp system.

we already don't allow people to change their mains, and typically not even spec. if we can have everyone just "declare" what their spec is, then decide on whether a given piece of loot is for that main spec, then they spend dkp from a main dkp. and if it's for offspec, and nobody from main wants it, then from an offspec dkp. aside from complexity, I think this is beneficial to the guild as a whole (we lose loot/badges by not completing that run).

as for increasing complexity, we could have automated the dkp system 5 years ago (and in fact I did this, just we didn't use it as the main dkp db, I just kept an internal addon for @dkp). I think I remember some nurfed addon with a nice gui for automating dkp. it's completely trivial to do, really. I bet a lot of guilds do it. personally, I'm in favor of adding complexity over retaining a dkp system from the 1990's that doesn't really apply to World of Warcraft in 2010.

My point is that if you want to be able to fulfill multiple roles then just buy the items. It's not a punishment if it allows you to dps when you wouldn't otherwise be able to be in the raid. You pay for something, you get something.

Da`Kor did something very similar to Sas's post. If that method is adopted I'd suggest making it a higher percentage so that looting is at least some form of a choice. Otherwise the same people end up getting most of the off-spec loot anyway because they never lose their dkp lead.

And me being casual matters? If I'm not mistaken I kept up a prot and holy set since before I joined Rope and the only downside was I waited for the other pallies to grab stuff first.

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you could predetermine which items were and weren't for each class/spec, but there are probably 8000 items now, so i don't know how viable that is.

who knows, i always thought free offspec was a good idea, probably because i was prot warrior tho.

dkp seems pretty cutthroat now to a point where you cant afford to spend even 1 dkp for an offspec item

my vote would be for a separate dkp list for offspec (warlocks dont really have an offspec). I think it's obvious if it's offspec or not, so I dont think that's a big deal.