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DKP discussion
http://www.ropetown.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4598		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  vulture [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:19 pm ]
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I liked the exodus loot system I mentioned @ end of last tier.

also while zero sum might be "fair", it's not really good in practice cuz of dkp whoring. that said, I'm done whoring since I got my trinkets and pretty much will buy almost anything now. ;D
Author:  Freshbeats [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:42 pm ]
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zero sum is only a "fair" system in the sense that everyone can hoard equally for their trinket which is just stupid in the sense that every upgrade in x tier is sharded because everyone is doing so because the only way to fight another person who hoards in the system is to do the same thing

~ a huge reason this happens is because trinkets are generally some enormous dps upgrade and cost basically NO dkp compared to any other piece so if you ever take ANY upgrade in the interest of actually helping the guild kill shit you generally get fucked on trinkets for the entire tier - I will PERSONALLY ATTEST to this whether it be Sartharion, (lo nice 10m uld trinkets) Heroic ToC, ICC, or Heroic ICC

ya also dkp is retarded when you let people who NEVER raid still get attendance from "ya oh u can call joki and joki can call her mom and her mom can call ceso and he can call gerrald and gerald can call his cousins and they can get in touch with me on facebook ya so im available k afk logged off 5 hrs freedkp thank"

you should also NEVER fucking get dkp because you CHOOSE to sit because you want to arena or whatever. Thats fucking cause and effect completely backwards. Sitting means you're available to come in at any time not busy doing other shit. Doing other shits fine but u definitely should not get dkp for it if you chose to do that over raiding.

I'd also say trying to "talk" to people about loot is pretty much pointless because its a fucking game and most people don't give a shit about you. Most people would rather take your 232 AND your 245 armor pen neck and rings for PVP when they have a 258 thats better for them and useless for you and leave you hanging in your fucking naxx gear.

Most people would rather take your Vezax cloak even though it was roughly 4x the upgrade for a hunter, and then replace it in your face 2 tiers before you even replaced your naxx cloak.

Most people would rather take all the BiS items from a tier and then completely dodge the raid for the next 2 weeks while your guild falls apart cuz you're wiping to content their gear was intended for

If you actually try and play the system like casters do, you'll have nasty ex-officers spread rumors and talk shit about you 5 times a week while spamming you with tells trying to guilt trip you @ the same time. Forget officers, even fucking casual raiders who only show up once a month do the same thing.

this is pretty much why the SYSTEM in place needs to be able to guarantee that loot goes to the right people instead of just hoping for people to magically resolve it themselves

anyway this is turning into a fucking rant because im getting the strangest feeling that we're going to table the issue.

im precisely calling for council ONLY on certain items just because of all the issues you listed.

you wont need to worry about some limit on loot since there's only so few slots being considered and obviously the people in the council have their input as well.

as far as time investment it doesn't really need to be any at all - You have one officer pick like 2 or 3 people that are knowledgeable about the role/class the item is for and they go into another channel for like literally 3 minutes while u clear trash

I really don't see how thats ANY more stress or work or time investment for an officer to take tells and check dkp numbers recording values etc


Yea my TLDR: RELYING ON OTHER PEOPLE TO PASS SHIT DOESN'T WORK SEE ABOVE IF YOU WANT EVIDENCE - ITS COUNCIL FOR TWO ITEMS TOPS AND IT DOESNT TAKE ANY MORE TIME OR STRESS THANK
Author:  Sam [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:01 pm ]
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It does add more stress because people will bitch and moan if they don't get the loot they feel they deserve. As evidenced by this thread and your post.
Author:  Ziggurat [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:11 pm ]
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I think loot council for a very small pool of items would be fine. almost all hoarding is due to trinkets.
Author:  Freshbeats [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:12 pm ]
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That's directed at stress of the officers not people who abuse the system

Obviously there will probably end up being bias involved but loot already goes to the wrong people so that wouldn't change anything at all
Author:  Elenya [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
Making decisions for a few items is probably fine, but please dear god not for everything.

Freshbeats wrote:
Most people would rather take your 232 AND your 245 armor pen neck and rings for PVP when they have a 258 thats better for them and useless for you and leave you hanging in your fucking naxx gear.

This shouldn't be happening. PVP gear should count even below offspec, and should cost full dkp. This relies on people to actually tell the truth, because I really don't check whether someone already has the item or has something better (in many cases I don't know what's better if it's the same ilvl). I can start checking the items that person has already taken, but that's about all I can do beyond others telling me what's going on. I wasn't doing dkp in ToGC so I can't say much about that.

Freshbeats wrote:
If you actually try and play the system like casters do, you'll have nasty ex-officers spread rumors and talk shit about you 5 times a week while spamming you with tells trying to guilt trip you @ the same time. Forget officers, even fucking casual raiders who only show up once a month do the same thing.

What the hell?
Author:  Freshbeats [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:45 pm ]
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explained to zigg not gonna go in any more detail about that here if ppl didn't already know what that was about
Author:  DobDob [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:53 pm ]
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I don't mind loot council on trinkets.
Author:  Nessaj [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:20 pm ]
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I don't think pvp items should cost any dkp. If an item is getting sharded and someone wants it for pvp, they should get it for free. Charging people for items getting de'd is dumb
Author:  Ziggurat [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Nessaj wrote:
I don't think pvp items should cost any dkp. If an item is getting sharded and someone wants it for pvp, they should get it for free. Charging people for items getting de'd is dumb


isn't that going to be even more subjective than mainspec/offspec issues?
Author:  happycheese [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've never been under a loot council, or partial LC, that worked.


I love this system:
http://raidingrainbow.com/dkp.html


edit: it might be walking the line of Loot council, but there's still hard numbers that are the default decision
Author:  Gape [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
In cases where referring to Raid and Item Points will not suffice, officer discretion will take into account several other factors, including but not limited to:

* Seniority
* Player Skill
* Guild Contribution
* Fuck-up Points™


...is pretty much completely 'loot council' judging from every guild where I've been a part of it, yeah

That's more or less what I'm suggesting the following gets changed to:

- HLK Weapons (lol)
- Trinkets
- Maybe AGI jewelry (note the # of tells on Sindra neck today even without me sending one, plus who got the ones before this one dropped)

Hopefully AGI jewelry being best for FUCKING EVERYONE is a thing of the past post Cata patch tho

Are there caster jewelry things that are insane like that? I don't even know
Author:  Elenya [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Gape wrote:
Are there caster jewelry things that are insane like that? I don't even know

BQL neck probably best for dps casters - locks, mages, me, moonkin, ele sham (~7 people total counting Ceso) and probably disc priests and holy paladins (+4 or so), Bone Sentinal thing best for people who care about spirit (holy priests, resto druids) I assume. Caster stuff will get as many tells as the neck did tonight in many cases. Gunship ring is pretty popular, too. We also have the same thing happen for cloth armor sometimes, since we share with spriest, lock, mage, priest healers, sometimes resto druids and moonkin. Even holy paladins (or at least Chair) have taken cloth. Higher armor classes taking lower is really a design flaw on Blizzard's part and we can't help that. Rogues and feral druids are in the same position, having all mail and plate sometimes competing for loot. I'm not saying that people shouldn't do this, because everybody should try to get the best gear, but it sucks for people who simply don't have other options.

It's not going to be fair to revamp the entire loot system at this point, but what I think can be done is council on HM LK weapons, and people who have the 264 trinkets shouldn't get the 277. However, raiders should get these over apps, maybe even after apps go though the 2 week no loot that others want for MS period. I would go as far to suggest that the apps coming in at this point, while they will work on HM LK with us, they haven't been here for the months and months or working on everything else, and perhaps that should be taken into consideration for loot that tons of people want. I also would like the weapon costs changed, it's really screwed up as I noted in my other post. Again, I think it's too late to do this, though. I suppose we could adjust everything retroactively, but obviously the damage has already been done. I'll talk these few things over with Dob and Zigg, or they can comment here of course.
Author:  cesrae [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:09 am ]
Post subject: 
dont take my LK expertise sword. that is all.
Author:  Gape [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:28 am ]
Post subject: 
cesrae wrote:
dont take my LK expertise sword. that is all.


oop
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